Make Guests Feel Seen, Not Served

"All right everybody, welcome to the future of hospitality. Today I have a very special guest, Steve Fortunato. And yeah, you know, so happy to to have you here because you you're an amazing Your journey has been pretty amazing. Right? I just got to know you recently through a mutual connection, David. But then, you know, certainly got here your wonderful book that we're gonna talk a lot about, but, you know, the urgent recovery of hospitality. But you, you know, you had a amazing catering company that you built, and so very, very honored to have you on the show. So thank you for being here. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Yeah. So first, congratulations on the amazing journey. That you've had, You know, I won't get into the book right now quite yet, but in reading the book, you know, it was interesting. Like, you had a your parents, your childhood had a big influence on your eventual you know, landing within kind of the hospitality space. And, yeah, would you mind speaking a little bit about how that came about? And, I don't know if she ever thought it would would end up that way. It came about because I I grew up in a hosting home. I grew up in a home that Had people over for dinner often. My mom had a lot of attention to detail in how she hosted. I grew up with seasonal dishes. So it sounds funny, but the the home I was raised in had dishes on display. So in fall, there was a line of dishes and and the coffee cups and the sugar and the creamer and the cereal bowls and the plates were all a line called burgund. I actually remember I remember the names of these dishes. And then in springtime, the Port Marion would come out. So I grew up in a home that hosted, that paid a lot of attention and detail to how meals are served, how they're prepared. And I took that for granted as a teenager that needed gas money. So when I went to go get a job as a busboy, how I would engage with tables shocked the management that a fifteen year old knew table etiquette and had a comfortability around tables that a lot of his adult servers didn't have. And for me, I was just Demonstrating my reflexes. I wasn't actually demonstrating anything. I was just acting in alignment with how I'd been raised. And you said in your question, did you ever think that you would have a future? And I would say, absolutely not. For me, the industry of service was something that I took for granted as a means to just paying the bills. And was pursuing other paths and had a a wise friend. You know? Sometimes life brings words and sage advice at really strategic times. And I was at a pivot point in my life. I graduated from college. I was really at an inflection point at what I wanted to do. And I was waiting tables to pay the bills while my friends were becoming partners at law firms. I vividly remember Cesar working downtown Los Angeles. I worked for a fine dining white tablecloth institution and being behind the bar and shaking a martini for guys I went to school with and just feeling that sense of where am I? Where am I? I felt really lost. And simultaneously, while that was happening, I was having people over in my home. I was a musician, and I was the lead singer in a band. So people would would come over to my apartment, and we would play music. And, you know, I would cook, and we would hang out. And I loved it. And this this friend, his name was Malcolm, he said, have you ever thought about embracing this? And I I was like, god, are are you kidding me? No. No. I do this to pay the bills. I'm trying to graduate from this season. And I had one of those situations where I just realized I'd kind of been running running from my path. And the path kinda found me, and and everything changed. Yeah. It's funny because when I was reading your book, I remember specifically this section where you say when Malcolm, right? Because you're hoping you're gonna get a music deal. Yeah. I was hoping he was gonna sign me. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then he says this, say, what? Come on, man. But Oh, I was so exalted. I was so hurt. I was so hurt. And he just said, you know, Steve, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of talented musicians out there. And and a fraction of them get deals and even a smaller fraction make a career out of the record deals that that they get. And You really have to be one in a million. And don't take this the wrong way. You're a talented musician, but you're not one in a million. But when it comes to hosting and hospitality, there's something different. And he he called out a gift, which I think I think that that is something that I've learned all of us need is we all we know that we all need to be seen. Pardon the I'm I'm at my, I'm at the home that I grew up in. So this is the backyard that I grew up in and built forts in my whole life. I've returned to Santa Cruz, and I was stopping over at my parents' house. So I I am actually on our back deck. So you're gonna see redwood leaves falling down while while we're speaking. We know that we know that we all need someone who sees us and makes us feel seen. And I think that we also need someone who can call out. Gifting in us that we might not recognize as gifting. I never never thought of myself as gifted in hospitality. And oftentimes, we just take our gifts for granted because there are reflexes. They're so inextricably linked to how we show up in the world that we would never identify them as something special because they come naturally to us. And that that's just something I think I'll always be grateful for is the way that Malcolm not just saw me, but he Call that out. Yeah. Yeah. I can see Have you had someone like that in your life that has seen you and Yeah. Spoken a really sage word at a really strategic time. Yes, yes. I had several. Listen, the first one that comes to mind, as we were talking earlier with my wife, Laura, where I specifically it was the turning point of my sobriety. Right? Where I relapsed. I was, you know, I was trying to get sober, had a few, you know, in and out. And then this one, I was, like, six months sober. And at the time, I was expecting to I had interviewed for a job, and I was ex expecting A reply. Right? And then I was in a meeting. The HR person calls. I can't answer, of course, and then she leaves a message just saying, hey. Just, you know, call me when you get these, and then I immediately thought, you know, I didn't get the job. Life sucks. And then, you know, I I said, oh, it's a great time to drink. And so then I relapsed. And then, yeah, I was about to to leave home, leave, work, And I called Laura, and I said, hey. I'm about to go, and she said, need to drink. And then I always lie. Right? I always lie about it. And then finally I said yes. You know, I drank and, you know, then I broke down and just said I'm just so lost. Right? I don't know what to do. I I just don't know. I just can't get it together. And I think she realized that, you know, At the time that really wasn't necessarily a choice, right? I mean, know, that I was really trying. And then she realized it was something bigger, and she said, you know, I see right, to your point earlier about being seen and heard and, like, I see that you really are trying, and we're gonna do this together. Right? Wow. Figure this out. And then that was like every time I talk about, like, they're just Yeah. And that was it, man. That was That was it. Yeah. How powerful to have in a moment where you're already feeling shame, and the person that is most impacted, secondly, to ourselves by our behavior and our bad choices instead of adding to that shame and accusing. Comes with a voice of compassion and support. What? Sounds like you got an amazing woman Oh. Next to You know? Yes. Very, very, very blessed. Yeah, more than observed. So Beautiful. Agree more. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. No. Thank you. And it's and it's interesting. You One thing that really stuck with me well, there's a lot that stuck, and I had, like, so many notes, man. I I don't usually take that many notes about a book when I read, but this one, like, I had a lot of things. But one thing that really stuck with me was, like You as a child, you know, your childhood because to your point, right, you grew up in a beautiful place, Santa Cruz, you know, by the water. You you know, like, you had a, you know, what sound like a good community, a loving family, You know? But, also, you experience some, you know, hardships. Right? You're bullied in school. And and that kind of you know, I think, like, all of us, that kind of forces us to adapt and a lot of times create, you know, good habits and bad habits from, you know Being trying to do the the best you can in the school and then, you know, people calling you a nerd, then you overcompensate by surfing the entire day. And Yeah. So how was that journey until you kind of start feeling that, okay. I'm I'm finding myself and getting closer to that, to who I am. Well, I'm hoping that today, I'm finding myself and getting closer to who I am. You know as well as anybody. It's one step at a time, one day at a time. I probably woke up to the reality that the programs that I had created in reaction and in compensation for what I had experienced were backfiring significantly. I probably woke up to that, I would say, around forty. And I just turned fifty. And it was hard. I have always been intentional about being my best self, and I'd have always taken my growth and my mental health and the roles that I play very seriously as a human, as a husband, as a father, as a business owner and leader. But I don't think that I saw that I had created an operating system that was really rooted in reaction until that time. And I have had to work very hard to unlearn, to let go of stories that I identified with. You know? When you when you identify and attach to a story, then the impact of that story, you are always in somehow relationship to that story. You're either adopting it and taking it on. You're reacting to it. You're rebelling against it. And so, you know, my my journey as someone who was ruthlessly bullied and excluded and all the things that you wrote about, abused. I I sort of identified as a victim. And and my reaction to that, as as you read, was I'm not going down again, ever. And so I built an operating system that was was very guarded. And, you know, you take that operating system into relationship with your partner, with your kids, with your people. And, you know, you realize that operating system might have helped you survive a season, but it's no longer working. You need you're you need a system update. So, yeah, I've been in the process of updating my system for the last decade. And, you know, it sounds so cliche writing a new story, but But You know, that really is the truth. I really am trying to say these things happened. Yes. But I don't want to identify As as someone who that was all that I experienced. And it's interesting because as I've tried to create a little bit of distance with that and not deny that it happened, but create a little more openness to to other stories coming online. I've had memories that I'd forgotten. Good memories. And and, you know, five years ago, I just would have said I had no friends, and I was bullied from the time I was ten until the time I graduated high school. But I've had these memories of, No. This guy was actually nice to me, and I used to have sleepovers at this kid's house, and it's just created space for a few more colors. Wow. Yeah. That is good. And and and it's interesting. Right? I think that One thing also that I I admire on your on your journey and then speaking a little bit about your your career and how you got started with, Room forty, It's like, you know, it's kind of how you used, you know, your foundation, you know, the example that you gave, you know, your home, right, that you that was already you were brought up as a host. Right? And and you're, you know, within the a lot of catering experience and all that. But then you start, like, instead of just following the norm, you start creating pop up dinners when that wasn't a thing. Right? He he he you know, I remember I didn't call them pop ups. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you had to go and chase. Right? I I don't know if you had to pay or trade in the beginning. A winery, you know, because they say, I'm not gonna go. And then after a few people are like, okay. We're gonna sponsor and all that. So, you know, was that like, did you have to overcome a lot of like or the question is how did you overcome your own fear, right, of taking that leap? Because I know you're you're not making a lot of money, right, at the time you're putting a lot on the line because you had a family. But then also, you know, because this is a first, you don't have many Believers. Alright? You you end up having, I forgot. Sorry. I forgot the the chef's name that was kind of a line cook somewhere and, you know Libri. Libri. Yeah. So, you know, you guys came together and create that wonderful chemistry. But how is that process to overcome your personal doubts and people around you that may say you're crazy, man. Yeah. I think I I burned the boats, man. I just I just went all in, and I, again, at one of those inflection points, I you know, when Malcolm came and said, have you thought about embracing hospitality? As a as a future, I so I started doing these dinners. And, obviously, as you said, I wasn't making any money. And so I kept my job at this fine dining restaurant, and they wanted me to start climbing the rat the the ladder. You know, they wanted me in management, and and I, you know, saw what that road looked like. And then and my wife was working at the time making more than twice what I made. And then we got pregnant. And and I had to decide, I can't do two things. Someone once said if you If you Try to sit in two chairs. You fall between the cracks, and I was falling between the cracks. I had to pick. And, honestly, I credit my wife. I I went to her and I said, You know, I'm not going to be able to build room forty while having a job at this restaurant. I think I need to go all in. And she said, go for it. And it's the most unorthodox business launch you could ever think of. We had we had our first credit card as a couple. We had it was an American Express Blue, and we had fourteen thousand dollars as our limit, and I completely maxed it out at Home Depot. All fourteen thousand dollars was spent on building this arsenal of Tuscan tables because I I felt like the table is the center of the experience. And as a tactile guy and as a guy that loves woodworking, I just I wanted the table to feel substantive. I wanted it to feel thick, you know, not this folding table with a white white table cloth on it. And so I had a a cabinet maker friend that let me work in his shop, and I was in that shop for nine months building this arsenal of Tuscan tables. I didn't know about rental companies at the time that had, you know, a table that can disassemble the legs, and and I wouldn't have had the money to rent the tables anyway. And so I came up with this design with the cabinet maker of how to how to make these big tables that the legs would pop out, and then I built carts, and I lined lined the carts with carpet so you could slide the tables in there. I mean, I could do a whole podcast on the tables. And I started doing dinner parties, and like you said, I first had to beg, you know, winemakers to participate, and they sent, you know, a tasting room employee. And in time, I had a waiting list of winemakers that wanted to do dinners with me. And, know, your question, how did you get over the fear I think that I committed. I just I committed, and I went all in. And I had a wife who had decided to not go back to work because we didn't wanna turn our baby over to daycare. And I had a new baby, and I just said this has to work. And I worked a hundred hours a week for, I think, six years. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's, yeah. I was very touching, you know, kind of seeing the journey. Now reading the book, you can feel like, you know, all the all the hurdles that he had to go through, everything that was going through your brain and decisions we had to make. And and I think and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one thing that was clear to me, and it's so true, you know, in life, in hospitality, anything we do, you know, you you surrounded yourself with, you know, really good people. Right? You know? And, also, I remember that initially, you surrounded yourself with not such a great lawyer from this fancy rats who are used to work. That's right. That's right. And then eventually, you found a great lawyer. Right? That's a great partner and is aligned. Yeah. So how I don't know. Did you just go by feeling people? How how do you go about kind of trying to find the right people to have alongside you for the ride? I think that if someone were to ask me out of all the tools that you had in your bag as a fledgling entrepreneur who had never gone to business school and who didn't know anything about owning a business, what was the best tool? I would say and total comfortability with a beginner's mindset, with being the young grasshopper and asking anybody if I could buy them a cup of coffee, asking anybody for their input. People are so accustomed to being asked for their resources. But I think when you ask somebody for their input They feel respected. And oftentimes, when you ask someone for their input, you get their resources as well. And so I was just coachable, and it became one of the fundamentals of how I ran my company. I've never in the history of running my company and giving literally thousands of interviews, I've never heard someone say or admit I'm not coachable. But people demonstrate coachability by how they respond in coaching moments. And I was coachable. And so I just sought out better players. And I asked them for input, and I was a voracious learner. And I read like crazy. I sought people out. I asked for input. I asked for feedback. And I think that between The input that I was being given, my gut sense, I think you really you really learn to trust your gut, and it's sometimes hard to hear your gut. Especially when you're getting a lot of input, you know, it's sort of a paradox. Right? I believe wisdom is found in paradox. And sometimes, I think our truest voice our truest voice of wisdom is sometimes found through subtraction as opposed to addition, through getting getting out all of the content, getting out all of those extra messages, and actually getting down to that that quiet place. We've heard the soul described as a wild animal. And if you wanna hear your soul, just like if you wanna see a wild animal, you don't go stomping through the forest. You go and you tiptoe into the forest, and you sit at the base of a tree, and you just wait. And eventually, the wild animal of your soul will emerge. And so I would say, on one hand, I was getting a lot of input, lot of addition, and on the other hand, it was a lot of subtraction and getting really quiet and really trying to hear my own inner compass as to what the past should look like. Man, that's deep. That's Yeah. It's funny. Now when you're talking, it it reminded me of something Matthew McConaughey said. I think it's one of his books. And He said exactly this. It's like, you know, start instead of trying to Figure out what you know, who I am or or something like this. Like, it's I start doing by, you know, what I'm not. That is much easier, right, to subtract and start figuring out kind of your true self. And and I loved it, man. Like, here, I have the I I enjoyed the the the cycles that you broke down because it's very, you know, you you did an amazing job breaking down into very simple, into the vicious cycle, you know, and the virtual cycles. And, you know, I don't think it's shocking to anyone, to your point when you think about the vicious cycle. It's all about, like, you know, me. Right? You're hosting to prove how great you are, right, or how talented you are, like many chefs do. You know, you take versus giving, and the fear is the driving factor. Right? That's right. And then in the virtual cycle, you know, it's about us. It's about hosting as an invitation. It was about them, not Yeah. Me. Right? Yeah. Economy of giving, empathy is driving, and it's it's interesting because it sounds so simple. But it's it's so not there. And and, Oswald, you you took me in a journey with you when you're writing about that restaurant Luna, like, where the experience, you know, could have been so detached. Right? It's like, you know, how dare I you ask me for this, or this is how the chef wants you to order or, and, actually, I was I even took a picture this week. I was on the road, and I was in a restaurant. And I took a picture. I'll send it to you later. It's kind of on the bottom of the menu. It says, You know, no substitutions, please. You know? And it's like, guys, how hard is it? Right? It's like, you know, it's and and and so it's interesting. Like, you know, you've been in business for a long time. You operated, you know, a very successful company, and, you're a speaker. I don't know. Like, what do you think why do you think so many people get stuck in the visual cycle? You know? Because to your point sorry. I know I'm not gonna ask. But because to your point, you mentioned that, you know, most people want to do the right thing. Right? And they're Yeah. They're you know, no one very few people perhaps wake up to not be great. But, you know, most people want to do the right thing. They don't wanna be just a taker. But But why do you think that so many of us are there? Because I think most of us do not live feeling like we are Enough. Most of us don't wake up. Feeling settled in who they are, feeling like they are enough before they do a thing. And content. The essence of hospitality is I have enough. In fact, I have so much that I wanna share with you. That's that's hospitality. I have enough to share. And I think that not just in this industry, but in our relationships, we are so easily co opted into this vicious cycle because there is an inherent scarcity mentality in who we are. I'm not even talking about financially or materialism. I'm talking about just our existence of as a human that I have enough witnessing, I have enough attention. I have enough affirmation. I have enough validation. I have enough so I can give. And I think it is really hard. To live like, generously. And Living with this giving mindset when you feel like I'm not enough. So you have to get. You have to get. Affirmation and validation. You have to get your perspectives noticed, your gifts, your talents. Of course, we all wanna be seen, and we're we're wired for connection as Brene Brown says. I fundamentally believe that, but I believe that So many of us just live feeling a soul level inadequacy. And so it shapes how we show up in the world. Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. That makes sense. When did you decide to write the book? I probably decided to write the book maybe three years after I saw the cycles. I saw the cycles. I was sitting on my surfboard as as you read. I was sitting on my surfboard, sort of taking an inventory of where we were at as a company, and that's when I had this sort of epiphany. I am in a business that is all about valuing others, and I am here trying to get value. As a founder, I want our company to be valued. I want what we do to be valued. And I I I realized, oh my god. I am culpable In in this conflict, you can't give value and get value at the exact same time. Something has to go first. And it became, as as I described in the book, it became sort of a a lens through which I saw everything, Not just my experiences in the service industry, but my experiences in relationship. And the more that I saw these cycles, that some interactions were just so life giving, and you left the interaction feeling encouraged and feeling seen, and all you wanted to do was just give the goodness that you experienced. You wanted to give that goodness away. And other experiences just left you feeling the opposite of those things. The more I talked about this worldview and the more that I let these ideas marinate And the more I heard from friends that I trusted, you need to write about this. I just finally said I wanna put this down on paper. So Yeah. I'm glad I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. The You know, as as you think about, like, The your your run business. And I love, like, how, you know, at the end of the day, right, it's really just about Being, you know, generous. Right? Being inclusive and being considerate of others. Which it's to your points about what hospitality is, but know, looking also on your journey as an entrepreneur within the hospitality arena, what do say to any young person, right, that may be considered or just entering, you know, our industry or maybe in another industry. What do you think could be some great lessons that perhaps you can share? That he learned along the way. The first one, I I would say what I said earlier, be Be voracious in your learning. Do not stop learning and go after learning like your life depended on it and be coachable. I would say what is happening in you will come out in your leadership. Oftentimes, you know, and it's one of the it's one of the fundamental liabilities of our industries that our our industry is led predominantly by chefs now who have had a lot of training in how to cook and very little training in how to lead. And so I would say that most organizations do not falter because of a lack of talent in the room. They falter because of a lack of leadership in the room. And so I would be voracious about learning about leadership. It's a really complicated time right now in leading. Leading multi generations, leading with rapidly emerging technologies. It's it leadership is hard. Leadership is incredibly lonely. And I would say surround yourself with other leaders. I would say make sure that your home life is rock solid because whatever is happening at home, all that running and starting a business will do is it will put pressure at home. And if there's any cracks at home, the pressure of of running or owning a business, It will it will find those cracks and it will create a break. And, you know, when you start a business and something breaks at home, then something breaks in you, and then it breaks in your business, and then it breaks in your people. There's this domino effect. So you really wanna make sure that you as a human are solid. You have people speaking into your life with regard to your health, your mental health, your habits, your leadership, how you lead people. And then you wanna make sure your home is solid. You really wanna make sure your financials are solid, That regardless of what path you take financially, if you're a self starter and and you go for the cottage approach and you, you know, make a little bun money and reinvest your money or you get outside investors. You just want to build a solid base around you, and you wanna look at the aspect of this business, which is you and your leadership and your home life. You know, this concept of like, oh, that's my personal life, and that's my professional life. We're living one life. Like like, we're we're we're one human. So I don't subscribe to the myth of a fragmented life. You know, who I am at home is gonna come out when I walk through the doors of my business. So Yeah. Those would be I mean, I could I learned so much, man. I I failed forward. You know? Yeah. And I I I'm someone who swings for the fences. You know? So when you swing for the fences and you go big, you you fail big. But every once every once in a while, you win big too. So Yeah. Yeah. And listen. You know, I have the same belief. Right? That is like, listen. If you're gonna if you're gonna miss, miss for something that you really wanna have, right, or miss for something big, then for something that you're settling. It's like, you know, at least at least you went down trying. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And it shows your you one thing that I really enjoyed in reading was, you know, not only the a lot on the hospitality, a lot of the business side of things, but really the the the personal connection. And I think more so than anything that, you know, in a book that I thought would be, you know, almost everything hospitality. It was was very vulnerable. And one of the big learnings that I had, and it was fun, is about addiction in a way. Right? Because you describe addiction as attachment. And you know even though I'm sober and been working through addiction for many years, I never had heard or thought about it. And it's so true, right? And you said that your addiction was being right. When did that click on on your head? And then tell a little bit what you did, you know, because you mentioned you went to a retreat and all that. So what are some things that help you kind of have that moment and then also, okay. Now what? Right? Oh, wow. What helped me have that moment? You you're not gonna like my answer. No. But you're going to resonate with it deeply. I think. I don't mean that in a presumptuous way, but just knowing a little bit about your story. I believe that that, sadly, we suffer to get well. And so what what helped me have that moment was suffering. Was was conflict, was hitting my own bottom. And I have a lot of friends in in twelve step, And I was always this is gonna sound crazy, but I was always a little bit jealous that they could point to the one thing that was creating their suffering. You know, it's alcohol, it's drugs, it's this. Because I'm like, I'm suffering. There's conflict in my relationships, but I'm not addicted to a substance. You know? What is my What's my problem? What what is my what is my attachment? And that's a very, you know, I think that that word shift for me was really helpful. Recognizing that attachment is the state of all of us. All of us have our attachments. All of us have our addictions. Some of us, although I'm sure the road is paved with a lot of tears. Some of us have the advantage of being able to identify their attachments very quickly and say, it's that. If I get ahold of this behavior, I can live in a greater measure of freedom. And a lot of us aren't able to see our attachments. We don't know what we're attached to. And and what what has hooked us. And so for me What led to me seeing that? Was suffering and feeling like there's just conflict everywhere I look. Yeah. And I'm trying really hard. I'm I'm really I'm I'm reflective. I'm I'm going to therapy. I'm I'm open. I'm I'm what's going on? And I realized that you you are addicted to your way of seeing. You you presume that how you see is accurate. Yeah. Failing to recognize that every single viewpoint is a view from A point. So if you and I were to sit here and fight about perspective, about what we're seeing, And I I said, you know, David sorry. Cesar, what do you see? I was thinking I was thinking of our friend in common, David. Cesar, what do you see? And you're like, I see redwoods. And I'm like, no. It's a I it's it's a it's a white room with a cool cool painting in the background. And and and we could just fight about what we see, forgetting that what we see is directly linked to where we're standing. Yeah. And It's really it's it's the blindness of presuming that we see clearly. And So, So, yeah, it it was it was a lot of conflict that led to me seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes to the point where, you know, the story you are telling yourself can't be held true anymore, right, because there is so much pain and so much. Yeah. That is that is spot on. And then I have I have one question that I wanna ask before we go. But before before that, one thing that also, as you were talking, just came to me that I think Hello. A lot of people You know, it was a great reminder for a lot of people is that and I'm just kind of hopefully paraphrasing correctly here, but it's something to the essence that, you know, a lot of times the things that comes easiest to us, right, our gifts, our innate ability to do things are the ones that usually we dismiss the most, right, or don't value just because of that because it comes so easy that we don't think is special while to someone else, that is like, woah. Like, that person, really, you can do that? And and and I think that is something that is really important that, For example, early on in my career and still times where there are things that I said, well, I mean, yeah, this is not special. This is just comes naturally. But I think having that that ability to, to your point, be self aware and be curious enough to recognize what you are great at, what your partner is great at, and so on to really, to your point, lead in a way where you're optimizing and really lifting everyone up and finding that amazing You know, symphony of talent that is is going to that common good. Yes. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. You know what what The reason I said David is I was I was thinking about what I see in common with you and David. And, you know, the name of your podcast is the future of hospitality. And something that I really experienced in my conversation with David, I'm experiencing with you as well. And it is the spiritual component of hospitality. And by spiritual, I mean nonmaterial. I mean the the the the energies and the aspects of it that are unseen. And I I think that until we acknowledge that that that hospitality, number one, cannot be owned by an industry. It's not it's not an industry. It is a virtue. And secondly, it is this it is this energetic flow. It's it's There's an abundance that is so overflowing that we share that with others. You know, like you said, there are a lot of people who are probably incredibly hospitable that take it for granted. They have an innate ability to make other people feel seen and feel comfortable. And, you know, I think one of the one of the first the front lines of a hospitable spirit is curiosity and and and showing interest in others. And, you know, I've been on a lot of podcasts. And And what is so different about this podcast, you know, how you've shown up. I mean, I've been on podcasts where and I'm grateful for every opportunity, and I love every conversation, but it's it's sort of like we're here with Steve Fortunato, and and Steve just wrote a book. And, let's see. What's what's the title of this book? The you know, and they're reading the title. And and and here you are having taken the time to Step in to my story and then show up with curiosity. Okay. Well, that's something in you feels settled enough to show up with interest and show up with curiosity, and I think that is the future of hospitality. Like, I have enough. I'm good. I wanna draw you out. I wanna I I wanna I wanna share I wanna hear what you have to share with us. And to your point, there are a lot of people that I think look at the silliness around Food media and cooking competitions and, you know, chefs that build empires and have lines of pots and pans in Target and think that that is what hospitality is. And then feel disqualified to consider themselves hospitable. And I I think we have a responsibility to to call out that innate gift that so many people have and just making people feel cared for. That's, you know, as you read, I define hospitality as making people feel valued. And there's a lot of people on the planet who are really good at making people feel valued. And and so that calling out of innate abilities that some might take for granted, that feels urgent to me. Wow. Oh, man. You gave me goosebumps. It's, yeah, it's so true. It's so true. And and to your point, I think really I agree with you. I think more than ever we need more people like this, right? Because, you know, we have our industry so beautiful. You have the ability to really impact people's lives. Right? In one simple interaction, you can change them how they Yeah. Feel about themselves. Yes. Make something they'll remember forever. And Yeah. You know? I mean, the fact that the fact that we can architect A A memory? Like, that's all we have, bro, is our memories. Do you know what I mean? Like, that is that is all we take with us. We might lose the menu. We might forget, you know, what the flavor actually tasted like on our tongue. But what we take with us is our memories, and it is a sacred honor to to be able to participate in architecting memories and the fact that people come to us on these occasions where they are wanting to create A memory. That is that is such a vulnerable position. I'm I'm coming to you on my fortieth birthday, and I'm never gonna have another one of these, and I'm never gonna have this gathering of people. And the fact that that the people in the room would take from them at that opportunity. It's it it feels so violating. You know? It re I mean, it reminds me of when when when our kids were born and really wanting to create this very protected sacred container around Nicole, and every sound, every voice, every light, every smell, all of that was architected to create safe space because she's coming into this space to give birth to a new life. And it would be so violating for someone to cannonball into that space and blast the music or turn on the light or be aggressive. I mean, it it it wouldn't it wouldn't enter the mind. N And our memories are like, that is that is what we take with us. And I and I think it is so important that we see our role as midwives. And the key to being a good midwife is, I say this as a man, but having having had my babies at home and watched a sage midwife, the key to great midwifery is attunement. And she you know, the you I I wrote about it. I think you read you read about me experiencing Margo, this midwife, and she was watching Nicole with Jedi attunement, knowing when Nicole needed encouragement, knowing when she just needed to be silent and let Nicole be in her own process, knowing when Nicole might need a drink. She was studying her because something was being birthed, and this was Nicole's experience. This was not about a midwife coming in and rolling up her sleeves and going, okay. Here's how we're gonna do this. This was Nicole's experience and our experience. And these are their experiences. Saying, have you been here before? Well, this is how the chef likes you to order. This is not the chef's experience. Yeah. It's ours. It's our experience. It's not the chef's. And and And and I I understand how we got here. We overcorrected from the customer is always right, and it makes it makes sense. But let's call it something else if when people come in to have their experience and and and we show up and we say, this is how the chefs likes you to order. These are the requirements. This is how many dishes and chef, you know, order everything at once. Then let's not call it our experience. Let's call it your experience. Yeah. And I am a participant in your experience. But if this is my experience, this is my experience. It's not yours. You have the sacred charge of of being in the room and of of of leveraging your craft to enhance my experience. It's not about you. It's about me and my wife on her birthday or me and my daughter or me and my friend Cesar having a connection. It's not about you. It's about us. And it's violating to cannonball into that experience and say, here's how this is gonna go. Sorry. Yeah. You can tell I feel passionate about it. Love it, man. You can see in your eyes. I love it. And, and, yeah, that's that's exactly right. That's that's what our industry is about. And, you know, so happy that you you're able to share that with us, right, the perspective, everything that you learned and and how to ensure that, right, we don't let it die. Right? We we keep keep improving, keeping getting better. And then this is like a just to close it out, just a curiosity on the personal level. Probably you are one of the most talented people that I've come across. Of course, you're great at what you do. I'm not talking about that. But you're a great musician. You're a great surfer. You do MMA. You great at woodworking. So it's like you you have, like, you know, all these different innate talents and and gifts. What's your favorite? Oh god. I don't know. I don't know if I would have one. I mean There is nothing like riding a wave. I mean, there is you you there's so many things we do in nature, but surfing is is riding nature while she's moving. It's it's you you're riding nature in motion. And it is a Powerful feeling. But music is You know, music is such you know, music gives I think music is the language of the soul. You know, we speak with our intellect and we speak with our emotions and music, I think, is our is our soul expressing, which is why I think after we have listened to music that's grabbed us or played or sung music, we we feel this ecstasy because our our soul has come to life. So woodworking is so amazing in that you labor and you labor and you labor and then you finish, and and you can you have something that you can look at. And and go you know, I put a lot of time and effort into that. And I mean, martial arts. I I got into martial arts because I was mainlining. What I call hero energy, which is really trying to prove your strength to yourself and to others. And and warrior energy is about mastering yourself in service to others. And, You know, in the gym, some of the most gentle people I've ever encountered are are martial artists. And I am absolutely the rookie young grasshopper in the gym. But martial arts is a lot more like chess than a bullfight. You know? And that's really why I started training. You know, When in a fight, you know, when someone punches you in a threat situation, your your natural response is to go into your lizard brain, your amygdala, which is where all of our fight flight freeze instincts are from. And our prefrontal cortex, which is our executive brain, which is where all of our thinking happens, that usually goes offline. Well, your prefrontal cortex goes offline in a fight, you are screwed because you actually you wanna think about, okay, he just hit me with a left hook. I need to, you know, I need to weave. I'm gonna cross. You you're anticipating what your opponent's next move is going to be and how you are going to counter that. It takes a lot of laser fast thinking. And how that helps me is it helps me in what I perceive as threat situations. Someone cuts me off, someone's rude, someone's abrasive or aggressive, disrespectful to my kid. It helps me it trains me to stay in my prefrontal cortex and not fight, flight, freeze, flip out, which I've done as a dad. So Oh, yeah. We all been there. Right? Yeah. You're Brazilian. I'm sure you've been there. I mean, do you do you train in jujitsu as a Brazilian? Yeah. I do. I do jujitsu. I've been doing like you. I'm, you know, just being doing over the last two and a half years or so, and I love it exactly because of this. Right? It's just the ability to It's the only time that I really have the ability to truly be in the moment. Right? A hundred percent. Yeah. Percent. There's not no stress about work. I'm not go what I'm gonna eat. Is like, you know, you gotta be a hundred percent there or you're done. Right? That's right. And just, you know, and just, like, to your point, it's not the aggression. It's just kind of how you how you learn about yourself, the opponent. And to your point, I love the energy about the people know, that I roll with and practice, you know, they're the kindest people, right Absolutely. To engage with. It's it's really a happy place for me. Yeah. I mean, I I was told by my coach that Jiu Jitsu translates as the gentle way, you know, and it's really an art form of of levers and learning how to flow and understand levers. And You know, it was created by, as you know, little guys who wanted to protect themselves against big guys and knew that they could not do that through brute force. They had to do it with their prefrontal cortex, you know? So I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Man, Steve, what a joy. You know? What a special opportunity for me to thank you for allowing for this conversation to happen. I'm sure the listeners will love and, you know, honestly, highly recommend the book. It's it's just so much. It's a book about life, right, in my in my view. But that's you know, it's anchored in hospitality, beautiful. Well done. And and Thank you. Thanks for sharing your journey with us. And Thank you, Cesar. For staying in touch. Thank you, Cesar. Me too. I appreciate it. "