Regenerative Hospitality & Wellbeing (Roundtable)

I think and I hope so it's more maybe I think and I hope doesn't sound definite, but that the hospitality industry will really embrace the people in general. So looking at, okay, how can we do something that's good, not only for profit, and that guests will also see that. And we'll see a say, okay, I want to stay at this company. So in the end, it will become profitable as well, that doing good will become profitable. Welcome, everyone. And thank you for joining this first future of hospitality roundtable conversation on well-being in the hospitality industry. My name is Arjan Ejkilebo. We've created this series of roundtables with students and industry leaders because I believe the future of hospitality needs the voices of students, educators and industry leaders together. When those perspectives meet, we understand not only where the industry is, but where it could go or where it should go. Well-being is the right place to start. Our industry is built on caring for guests, but real hospitality includes the well-being of the people who work in the industry, the communities, communities we touch and the places we operate in. And today, we will explore how hospitality can elevate or undermine the well-being of individuals and communities, and how regenerative thinking might offer a way forward. I'm joined today by four guests. First, we have Anemone Schepel, senior lecturer of Hotel School de Haeg Amsterdam. Anemone is also the creator of the regenerative society, Miner. Then we have our two students, Emma Müller and Fena Hofmeister, both a student at Hotel School de Haeg Amsterdam. And finally, Cesar Verm, senior vice president, member strategy and development at Associated Luxury Hotels International. Cesar is an industry leader with international experience in luxury, hospitality, he's an author and a speaker. Welcome you all and thank you for joining. Thank you for having us. All right, this is an open and organic conversation. There are no taboos and any experience or observation that you have or vision for the future is welcome. Please share anything that comes up in your head. To set the foundation for a conversation, I'd like to start with you, Anemone. Yes. All right. Anemone, you've been shaping the regenerative society, Miner at the Hotel School. How do you describe regenerative hospitality? And why was this Miner created? So regenerative hospitality is really about giving back more than you take. It's looking at it's a step further than just being sustainable because sustainability is about doing less harm and about a net zero, actually. And if we're looking at regenerative, it's really giving back more than you take. How does it start? Oh, sorry. No, no, no, no, no, go ahead. How does it how does it differ from sustainability? Sorry. Well, I wanted to continue for looking at regenerative society. So why the Miner was created was actually because we had the future of work, the future of food. We had all kinds of minors. And then we thought about, okay, we don't we we embrace the UN SDGs. We don't do anything more with that. So what we want to do is that year four is really looking at, okay, how do we give back more than we take because hospitality is really looking at, okay, yeah, giving back more than you take, it's really looking for looking out for the other looking for the community. And that's also why a regenerative sustainability came into place. We thought, yeah, we've got regenerative gastronomy, regenerative business. But what do we do with the local communities? What do we do with, for instance, NGOs? How do we make sure that we do something, how to support the hospitality industry, to make that connection and to create that regenerative society. And that's how the minor came about. Hmm. Can you share an example of regeneration in practice? Big or small? Um, well, I think the two students who are now here today, they've got really nice examples, actually. So it was nice because we started this new minor and both Emma and Fena, I'm very proud of them. They were two of the students who started doing research for this minor and said, okay, yeah, we would like to do something more and create a bit of impact. And that's why they started to do that research. So I would like to really maybe give the word to Emma on that question. We're going to hear more about that from Emma, indeed, but I want to hear a little bit more from you. Why do you think that this approach is so relevant in hospitality today? Um, I think if we're looking at regeneration, one of the things we really focus on as well is building connections with each other, making sure that we create partnerships to create a better world. And I think that's what we need to do as a hospitality industry as well. And as a hotel school to build these connections with each other and to look at how can we create impact and make a better world for, you know, the next generation, but also ourselves. Yeah, so you created this minor. Where do you already see that hospitality is moving into this direction? Well, I have some examples, because we also create this impact fair with various organizations. And one example was, for instance, Floris Licht, he's doing these hotels for trees. So guests can decide not to get their room cleans, and then they plant a tree for that. So that's actually giving back more than you take. I had another example of former students, actually, and he's building this sustainics. So it's a kind of analytical AI tool, which is helping hospitality businesses to map out their sustainability and to look at certification as well. So that was another great example. And we had various organizations come in NGOs who do things for the community, like homeless shelters, volunteering, so all these kinds of examples bring regeneration, I would say. You mentioned Floris Licht from hotels for trees. He was on the podcast a few months ago as Dragos from Sustainix. I see Dragos next week. So thank you for that on the show. I'm really, really helpful. I'd now like to move to the students indeed, because that's why they are here. Emma, go to you first. You spent time in South Africa. And what I remember from our conversation is the excitement and the love that you have for South Africa that you created while you were there. So back to regenerative society, what stood out for you there in terms of community belonging or dignity? And how did it shape the way you look at hospitality? Yes, so thank you first of all for having me here today. I think for me, South Africa has had such a big impact on why I also chose to do Hotel School The Hague and why I wanted to go in this whole area of hospitality. I think with the three words you mentioned also community and belonging, especially they have in South Africa service is seen on such a at least of what I've experienced and also what I've gathered from working there a bit and living there. It's seen on such a different level. It's really on bringing genuine connections to the guests and really offering a high value service while keeping that personal touch. And I think that's super important. I mean, I also mentioned it back in the first podcast we did belonging is such a big topic of hospitality because at the end of the day, I feel like wherever ever we go as a guest into the hotels, you know, you want to have that sense of belonging. And I feel like in South Africa, you really have the opportunity through the local communities that also work at these different, especially in the safari industry, but at these different lodges, they really try to bring you that universal need of belonging to your experience. And I would say hospitality there is definitely an experience. And I feel like that's where I got a lot of inspiration from living there, you know, everybody's super open and really cares for what your needs are. And it's super positive as well. Even though, you know, you never know. And I think Fena can say the same maybe for Dubai, but you never know what's going on behind the scenes of all these people that work in hospitality and that have this pressure and everybody brings their different things to the table, but there's still that genuine connection and that excitement when new guests come and trying to, you know, show them a part of their community as well and their culture. And I think that just generates such a sense or big sense of belonging. And I think it's super inspirational of how service should be carried forward. Can you describe an experience that paint a picture? What you just said? Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe to go away a bit from Safari and what I usually talk about, but also when I was working in a, in a luxury boutique hotel in Cape Town, so in obviously a big tourism area. And we had quite like a lot of international guests come and the expectations from these international guests often are that all these people that work in the hotel come directly from the middle of Cape Town and you know, they're living in quite a stable environment because they're working in this high and luxury boutique, but often that's not the reality, unfortunately, also with the history of South Africa. And I think that we had guests that were so interested in seeing actually where these like where this for these team members were coming from. So we did a private tour with them and actually showed them, you know, I mean, this was super open from the team members as well, but show them part of their local community and where they work from. And it gave them such a different perspective as well of their working in this super beautiful building right at the waterfront in Cape Town. And you know, they're bringing this high level of service, but the story behind it, it's it's not an easy way of how they got there either. And it's, it was super inspirational to also see that the guests really cared for where they were coming from. And I think that should be something that gets put more into perspective a lot more often. So yeah, If you look at the future of hospitality through your eyes, what do you hope will change? Well, I hope that I mean, I think there is a lot of change happening all the time. I just think that maybe this is a generational thing as well coming from our generation, but I would really hope that hospitality is such really still get seen as this art of really curating experiences and that guests and customers really see the effort that goes on beyond the whole service part and that there's really appreciation that comes in with it because I think offering all these experiences, people, I mean, they're out there, I want to say performing at such a high level always and like really trying to inspire guests. I mean, it really depends on which area of hospitality you're looking into, but I would love to see more appreciation for actually the work that goes on beyond the customer experiences. How long have you stayed in South Africa? A total of over, it's over nine years with going back there. Okay. So it wasn't just internship you spent many years there. Okay. Yeah, I grew up there for a while. And then we moved back to Germany. And then I went back there because I couldn't resist to do if I'm not going to say all about this, but I couldn't resist to go back for my first internship as well. And also after work. So you're going back? It's in the long term in the long term. All right. Okay. Thank you. Emma, thank you so much. Fena, I'm going to you. All right, you experienced hospitality in Dubai at a very high intensity level. What did the day to day reality feel like from the inside? And how did that environment influence your sense of well being? Because I remember that that it was high intense. Go ahead. Yes. Well, I also went to Dubai for my internship for my first internship for hotel school. Yeah. Which was very interesting, because it's a whole different world out there, of course. And I think I, I'm the most grateful for going on with this opportunity because it's like the luxurious hospitality is like over the top there. I don't think I've ever experienced hospitality on a higher level than I've done there. So that was very interesting. And at first, you get a long onboarding period, which is quite intense already as well, because you're getting ready for a very hectic six months. But the day to day I was doing front office. So I was a guest service executive, which was interesting, because as I'm doing my research as well now on emotional labor, you can see that front office or at least the reception is the main department. And obviously the main part of communication for guests, where most emotional labor appears. So the day to day would be a lot of check in check out, of course, formalities. But then in between you would get a lot of complaints, higher expectations, because the people pay so many, so much money, the expectations rise as well. While the lowest room category already costs a thousand euros, for example, for one night, people expect to have a lot of view, but in reality, you have a view on a wall next to the to the kids pool. So that's a bit of the difference and the difficulty you experience there. And then the lack of control and the lack of yeah, the lack of to recover the service provided is quite difficult, because you're continuously on 95 99 occupancy rates. So you have a like a very low chance for a nice room move to be done. So it's continuously the pressure that you can feel. But it's very interesting and very educational, I would say. And still to the day. Today, I'm also, for example, now at work at my second internship, so my last internship. And here I'm doing a duty manager internship. And now I'm really fixing those complaints. So in Dubai, I could still move it a bit to another person, because I was in just an intern. So I could move it to the duty manager over there or the rooms controller. But now it's me recovering those service complaints. Sounds like fast learning. Yes. Well, you're getting thrown in the deep end. But I think that's the best way to learn. And you like I would say that. Yeah, I love it. I really do like it. How did that environment I want to go back because it's high intense. How did that environment affect your personal well being over time? You spent six months there. And I remember some stories you told me and you can you can share them with us if you want. Yeah, so I think as well, what would for me personally would really get the pressure up was, for example, we had a lot of mystery guests coming in forps that would check upon us LQA and all those standards together, all those different organizations that test you have their own set of rules and set of expectations that you have to maintain and ensure that you comply with them. And I think that was the most pressuring for me, because every day I was like with a check in, it's not like you get a script, but there are sentences you have to say or you have to make me room features or whatsoever and call the guest name so many times. And I think that's very interesting. And that's where luxury hospitality also starts. But I think that was really putting a lot of pressure on us. And as well, for example, on every morning, every briefing, we would do a role plays role plays after role plays in front of the whole team in front of all management. And as an intern of just turned 18, it's quite intense and scary. But you grow with it. And that's really nice. But I would say we would have like documents with suspicious guests for LQA or forps or mystery guests. And every day, I remember that I always had that person. And then you recognize the face and then you're like, like the nerves are here. And then you forget stuff. And then I get back I called my mom like mom, oh my god, what if maybe I lose my lose my job? But all good in the end, of course, but that's the pressure because you're getting checked out. And I think I've learned so much from it. But it's intense. And also, the complaints you sometimes get and screaming in front of everyone and calling out names when you're wearing a name tag and everything that's quite intense. And also, the pressure of reviews you get. Because we would go through all the reviews. And if it would be okay, the lady that checked me in was blah, blah, blah. They will see in the changes in the system who checks you in. And then so that's a bit of the pressure you will experience definitely. Yeah, is that that? It doesn't sound healthy to me. What is your opinion on that? Well, I think to be able to maintain such a high standard of hospitality, I think it's important to have control over situations and to do those role plays, for example, because even though they throw you in the deep end again, by okay, Fena today, you do it without telling you. It's good to have feedback and realize, okay, this should be done better and everything. But I have to say with the reviews, I also see for example, here, if I get a review from a guest saying that he is able to have been rules, then I also check in the system who has done it. And then we don't openly speak about it. And you maintain it within the team. Actions need to be taken because if the guest is right, yeah, if they do it to one test, they can do it to a second one and a third one. And then ours go down and the name and the brands is being jeopardized. Right. It's a great area. Yeah. That's why we have in this conversation. What do you think your generation needs from hospitality culture in order to thrive? I think if I speak from personal experience, also what I've discovered in my research, that mental well-being is obviously becoming way more the topic today. And there are a lot of initiatives taken by hotels, what I've seen in the world and research, but it's all after it's already been done, like when the harm is already been done, there's nothing preventative efforts at the moment to ensure that we prevent people or employees from experiencing any difficulties. And I think that's what we need. I think in the onboarding period, a more extensive onboarding period would be very helpful. And also, I would say now I've created a solution for my success. That's a guide where leaders can use emotional labor as a strength, rather than a weakness, because it's undeniable. We cannot remove emotional labor. So instead of seeing okay, what can we do to improve it, use it as a strength rather than a weakness. So I think we need to know awareness about this. Fena, thank you again. Thank you for your and Emma, both of you for sharing your experiences and your insights, both of you. I'd like to open this a bit wider. So this is for everyone, all four of us. When you look at these experiences at the end at the industry, as it is today, where do you see hospitality really supporting well-being? And where do you see it undermining it? So two different things. Who first? Cesar, maybe you. Yeah, it's a it's a good question. And it was it was really interesting to to be on the hearing right end of this discussion, because I, you know, being in this industry for a long time, right, I started my first job, my first official job in, you know, hospitality I was in 98. When I started, you know, overnight room service, assistant room service waiter, and, and it's great to see the progress of the discussions, right, a discussion like these would never happen. When I first started, nor I would have the, I don't know if the courage, the right word, but I guess the emotional intelligence, right, to, to be sharing like, and then have been sharing and kudos to this generation, I think, to really be helping us elevate how we look at things, how we improve ourselves, and even from, you know, the university level to be having, you know, a course like regeneration, right, tourism. And that is, that is very important, because that really forces everyone to open up their minds and see, okay, how we can provide better support, you know, at work, not only from services and, you know, overall health care, you know, that that encompasses well being and mental health, which has evolved a lot. But also, how do we apply that on the day to day, because to this discussion, you know, hospitality is a lot of fun, but also is a very high pressure, right? I mean, to your point about, you have, you know, real time reveals, real time access to the million dashboards. So, you know, I don't think these will ever go away, especially as pressures on labor costs and everything happens, right? There's going to always be driving for efficiencies. And, you know, to some of the examples discussed, prices are not going down, right? So people are paying a lot of money for noise experiences. So there comes a very high level of that, that it's, you know, adds pressure, but yeah. Thank you. It's well being something that is for all four of you again, is well being something that is talked about openly now in your environments, or is still something that is stays under the surface. Because it's when I started, I started, I started in 1984, that's a long time ago. And well being was not that wasn't on the agenda at all, it was under the surface. And I felt like a loner in the desert. So that's why I'm so happy to do this, because I wish it was there 40 years ago, but it wasn't. So is it something that go ahead on the moon? Yeah, so one of the things I see now, it's also an education. So I've been already working for almost 18 years in, in hotel school, The Hague. So quite a long time. But we're also focusing a lot more on well being mental health, emotional intelligence, the adversity quotient. So how do you deal with adversity? All these elements are very important nowadays. And I also see the hotels or the partners that we have, hotel chains are focusing a lot more on well being, they have for instance, schemes that you can enjoy sports or other well being they've got mental health, interventions. So you see it a lot more, I think, within also within the industry, but definitely in our education is where we, we focus a lot on well being. And that is something that has happened in the past few years, right? Well, I think the last, let's say, maybe already eight to 10 years that it's been starting to get more traction. And I think it's also because there are, there is more in, in general, more awareness on well being mental health. Yeah, so people know that this is a service profit chain. If you put emphasis on your employees, happy employees make happy guests. I think that's very yeah, very known saying already. Yeah. And yeah, it's focusing on this well being, but I think the last maybe eight to 10 years that it's been changing. Yeah. Right. Emma and Fena, does today's industry match the expectations that you had before you entered it? Well, I mean, maybe I'll go ahead and then Fena can jump in. I think when I started working, like my first actual hospitality experiences were, I think not the usual hospitality experiences because I went right into a safari lodge and it's super different. You know, you're in such a different bubble and you take all the time that you have just to focus on these little guests that you have. And it's super different than when I actually went back to Germany and then also to the Netherlands and was working in hotels there. It was a complete different scenery of how things were approached. So I definitely my expectations changed throughout, I would say. I think I started in a super positive environment, I would say. And then I also quickly learned that this was maybe not the reality everywhere. And that's, I think that's totally normal and understandable because obviously it depends on which industry sector you're in within hospitality, right? And what your experience is that you're serving or if you, you know, if the experience is just a fast one night overstay or if there's somebody that's coming actually for a longer stay and really wants to experience the hospitality side of things. But I do would like I would say that there is a lot more attention now towards well-being because I think it's just a generational generational thing that we come with. And I think the industry itself relies so heavily on this new generation to continue also working in this in these service sectors. And you know, there needs to be adaptations as well in that terms of because you need that generation to continue working in hotels because who else will continue to, you know, move forward with that service. So I think there is a bit of two way expectations coming together. But yeah, it definitely changed from my beginning to where I stand out, especially now with my internship. I'm, you know, being in a management company and you have the management company having expectations towards the hotel portfolio and the investors and you actually know also the other side of how it is to be in the hotel and now making that connection of where these expectations come from, you know, maybe in a harsh reality investors don't really take note of all the operational things that go on beyond. They just look at the numbers that come out at the end and really trying to make that balance of getting the hotel operations running smoothly and taking care of everybody that's there. But also, you know, satisfying the number part that's involved and the financial part that's involved. It's super interesting to see those perspectives now as well. Yeah, for me, it's meeting my expectations. But I think as well, I started hotel school without having the motivation to work in hotels, even though as a side job, I was working in restaurants. But I think the education has been very rewarding in real life, I would say, because now as well, I've done cross trainings with sales and revenue management. And I can really see what we get in the courses at hotel school. Yeah, I can now see in real life and then in more depth, obviously. But I think that's very interesting. And my really, my goal is to become one day a general manager, but first grow like front office manager and then director of rooms and everything. But now working in a business hotel, because I'm working currently at Sheraton at Schiphol. Oh, that's right. It's really, yeah, it's really nice. Is that the office in the middle? You have your desk in the middle of the property? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about that because that's everyone needs to hear that. Because of duty manager, of course, you have to be like, it's interesting as well, because also as an intern in the weekends, when there are no directors of head of departments, the duty manager is the responsible person in the hotel and has to make all the decisions. So I think having the opportunity to have this responsibility during an internship is really rewarding. Even like at the same time, it's really nerve wracking in the beginning. But it's nice now. And now I know what to do and everything. But our desk is located right in the middle of the lobby because we have to oversee the front desk and then the guest elevators and then at the right, we have our restaurant and then in the middle of our hotel, it's open. So I can also look at the other restaurants and bar. And behind me, there's a staircase, the only staircase we have. So I can see everything downstairs. I can see the conference center. So that's really nice because we have to be outside and have to be approachable for guests. And I think now working in a business hotel is very interesting because the average length of stay is 1.3 nights. So the service recovery time is very minimal. And how in Dubai, you could do that with an experience. Now it's more monetary or points via Merriott Bonfoy or an upgrade to a next room category on the next day. So that's interesting to see the difference and I'm very, I think it's very valuable. However, my aspiration is really to grow back into the luxurious five star hotel properties, because I think what's most rewarding for me is making the experience and more the guest relations side. So yeah, I think it's really meeting my expectations and I'm really happy with that. And I think also the combination of practical and now doing research, while I'm also doing research in hospitality, in hotels, luxurious hotels, it's really nice. And everything that I find on academics journals or what I gain from interviews or survey results, I can really see happening on a day to day basis right here as well. So I think that's very inspiring and nice to experience. Lovely. I can visit you soon. I'll be at Schiphol almost every week. So I come and come see you. I come see you. Caesar. Yeah, we got to you, Caesar. Can you share a bit about your about your own journey in hospitality and how questions of pressure, well-being and recovery have shown up in your life? Yeah. Yeah, it's been, listen, it's been an amazing experience and to your point, it's been a long journey and a lot of unexpected because for me, for example, how I got into hotels is that I got the job. I really liked the environment, the energy that you feel, especially at the time, there was a lot of young people working together. So that was, that was great. And then I studied hotel school similar to to the discussion here. And then I started as well as an intern. I got to the U.S. to do a one-year internship, which became now almost 25 years here, unexpectedly. And I spent a vast majority of my career in sales and revenue generation. So up until recently, before joining Ohio, I was with hotels, hotel management companies. And then most recently with the intercontinental hotels, overseeing a few brands here in the U.S. And it was interesting, I think that for me, you know, wellness has become very important over the last, you know, 11 years or so. You know, I've been sober for 11 years, well, almost 11 years in 19 days. But yeah, it's interesting because I think that I love this discussion because I think it's it's great to be able to share experiences, to be more vocal. I think men generally speaking, right, we tend to suppress things more. I think women, you know, we have a daughter, she's 14, and I can see the big difference how I was and how she is like, you know, her EQ is so so high, that's crazy. And, you know, so for many years, I kept that pressure, you know, assuming how I should be behaving or what I thought people expected me to perform at work. When reality all I needed to do is ask, right, ask and talk through things. And you start creating this narrative that can be very inaccurate or you know, you you make assumptions that, you know, doesn't necessarily add to an unnecessarily, you know, better productivity or healthier type of environment. And of course, I had, you know, you know, I'm not saying that my journey as an alcoholic cause, you know, was due to the industry. Of course, there is, you know, many other reasons as to why from not dealing with trauma and things like these in my life. But certainly, you know, is one of the the industries that really allow for, you know, an easy access to, you know, it's not not not unusual whenever in food and beverage, you finish your shifts, right? You hang out as a group, you go to things you tend to be young and you go party. So nothing wrong with that. But certainly something that I carried way above and beyond. And then you really allowed me for, you know, to leave a lifestyle that wasn't healthy at all for me and and somehow I was able to manage for many years. And then to me, I, you know, I made, you know, I made the assumption in my mind is like, hey, there's no consequences. If, you know, there's no negative impact per se, there's nothing wrong with how I'm living, which couldn't be further from the truth. And yeah, and then over the last 11 years, I thankfully had, you know, an awakening that, you know, I had to make a change and has been a beautiful journey. And just to be able to have this this this conversations and especially now I see the difference between, you know, how I was, you know, and the industry that I started with, you know, over 20 years ago to what it is today, right? A lot of people approach me and ask for, hey, I'm struggling with this, even if there's nothing to do with addiction, it's just like a mental wellness, well-being, health habits. However, right, you can be better as a person for yourself and those around you. And that's a beautiful thing. Gives me a lot of hope. And and I know it's just going to keep going better and better. Wonderful. That's is that the reason why you wrote your book? To inspire people, to help people? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit? Tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, show us. Yeah. I wrote the book here. You know, The Powers of Addiction. Hold it up. Hold it up some more. Hold it up a little longer so we can read it. Here, can you see it? The Powers of Addiction. Fighting freedom, in acceptance and recovery. And yeah, and it took me. So, yes, in short, yes, right, is to to be able to help make a difference because, you know, the first eight years of my sobriety, I wasn't public about it because I had a lot of shame. I had my own bias towards addiction that, you know, is just kind of, you know, if you see a homeless person, right, you assume a lot of things about them and that was my approach to addiction. So, so anyway, after eight years or so, I start opening more and more about it and it was very interesting as I start opening about my journey and sharing the responses that I got were really surprising to me. You know, I expected to be met with, you know, judgment and rejection and couldn't be further from the truth. I was really from, you know, acceptance and people, you know, whenever you're vulnerable and you share something, the tendency is for people to feel safe and share that with you as well. And then I was blown away by how much that was relatable to a lot of people, either directly or indirectly, meaning they know someone or have a friend. And even in instances that has nothing to do with addiction, right? Just being able to be able to share that, hey, everybody usually has something happening in their lives or has had a difficulty or a hurdle. And that is relatable in any way and just being able to share that, hey, regardless of how dark or how challenging a situation may be, there's always a way to get better, to get support. And that's where I kind of have four pillars that were really helpful to me and really comes about like the awareness, acceptance phase, right? That you accept where you are in your life, regardless of what's happening. So at least you have awareness where you are and what you gotta do differently or what you wanna do it. And then gratitude, when I was really deep in my addiction, I wasn't grateful, right? I was always looking to this scarcity mindset, what I was missing or what I was wrong or white procedure or whatever the case may be. And there are always so many things we can be thankful for, right? Not saying that life's perfect, but you know, and then you start seeing your mind, your brain chemistry change when you do that. And then, there's a lot of things open. And then the two last parts is like what we're doing here, right? Community, so whomever I have positive people around you, have people that you can relate to, trust and share, then then you can create healthy habits that whatever recharges you and helps you be able to live the life and the wellness that you want to be. So yeah, so that has been a great journey. So the book has been out for like a little to over two years. And yeah, the responses are amazing when people read and give, you know, reach out and say how it impacted them. Cause I was very open, right? So I share everything in my book. I really, I thought if I'm gonna share my story, I'm gonna share with my filters. Yeah, yeah. And can I just congratulate you on being 11 years sober? And one of the things I was thinking of when you were just talking just now is I have a group of students who are now looking at loneliness, loneliness in the EU and doing research on that. And a couple of them are also looking at that loneliness that comes after addiction. So when you're in that recovery period and you know, what I was just thinking of because you went public about it, you said first eight years at it was really the stigma maybe or what you felt. And I see that in the students that are doing research on this that it's also, you know, speaking up about it or talking to others about it. Also the people were not in an addiction, right? Because it's also, and then they will come with their ideas. And then you see, okay, I'm not lonely in this process or I'm not only, you know, with this group who are also, but everyone is having sort of issues or dealing with it. And that's what I like about it. Also this story that sort of confirms it for me. I can report back to my students actually to say, hey, you need to contact me or read the book of Caesar on this. And it also reconfirms the adversity quotient. So we say with the adversity quotient is how you deal with adversity. One of the most important things is that you can, yeah, if you're grateful for things and you just writing down, you know, little things by the end of the day, which you're grateful for you really rewire your brain and you become more, you have a higher adversity quotient as well, you can deal better with adversity. So yeah, it's great that you mentioned that as well. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, so happy to hear that students are researching that, right? I mean, while they're researching, I was parting in my age. So that shows the progress that, you know, the new generation is doing. And it's interesting because the loneliness, the isolation, I was very isolated when I was, right? Under addiction. And then to your point after as well. And, but it's interesting, like you become addicts. They become so good at faking that, you know, when people are looking from the outside, they wouldn't know, right? They wouldn't know that I was isolated. They, you know, because you become very good about deflecting and pretending. So yeah, that is amazing. That's interesting. I'd love to read their findings. Sounds like an interesting study. Yeah. Can I ask a question? Yeah. Sure. Do you have, or have you ever researched or thought about, and maybe the hospitality industry is a big cause or from some people that are experiencing addictions or is there like kind of a correlation between the two or that's not the case? I had great question. I don't know the answer. I didn't research, but yeah, happy to look into it. I don't, yeah. I think, you know, the only thing that I can say is that it's, you know, from a profession standpoint, right? I think it provides more ease of access, right? So if someone has a tendency like I had, and so I think it's easier to kind of make it possible because, for example, you know, like especially on their, you know, in sales where I was, right? There was always a networking event after work. There's always a convention. There's always something. So that platform is natural that people, okay, I'm gonna have a glass of wine and, you know, and listen, most people do it and can do it well, great. Right? But I went way beyond that. But yeah, but that can be kind of easy, easier to hide, I think, than a traditional, I don't know for sure, but let's say I work in a factory building cars, right? I don't know if there will present the same opportunities in a way. No, fair point. I think it's also definitely more accessible because if you also look at restaurants or anything, it's so usual in common to just have a drink after your work. That's how I grew up. I don't know any better. When I was 17, 18, 19 years old, every, I worked in a French specialty restaurant. I was only 18 years old. And every Saturday night, the owner opened a bottle of wine for us to taste, but it was drinking every week. And at some point, it was every night when I was older, I was a general manager at a restaurant and it's showtime every day. You could also finish all the bottles, right? You could also finish all the bottles of every, you know, it's true, you always have really nice wines and there was like maybe only one glass taken from it. So we could just finish the bottle ourselves. So it was really like finishing all the bottles by the end of the night. Yeah. So it sounds like fun, but indeed, it's a slippery slope. And if you're sensitive, just like Caesar said, I was lucky, I wasn't that sensitive but I know people who got addicted because of that. So maybe there were other causes as well, but the access to it, the easy access to it, I think definitely plays an important role. Yeah. So it's good that we're talking about it. Yeah. I mean, also just to give another example, like from somebody like working in a restaurant, you could have the manager would give smoking breaks and if for me, one that doesn't smoke, at one point I also said I smoke just to go out for those five minutes and get those five minutes of breaks like it gets on smoking hospitality as well, you know, even though now you've got smoking rooms, but it's, yeah. Yeah, you change to it. Yeah. So they also get those five minutes of breaking can go outside or something. Okay, we are getting to the end of our conversation. It's almost been an hour already. This is a question for all of you. If you could redesign hospitality culture, what is the first thing that you would change? Who first? Wow, all the question? So I don't know. It's a great question. I really don't have an answer other than like conversations like this, right? I think it's always great to be able to do self-reflection and look at things that are going great that are doing really well and keep doing those and the areas like we're discussing today that there is opportunities like how can we continue to elevate the guest experience while also taking better care of everybody that's supporting that quest. And I think that's a never-evolving journey and it's great to see that that's happening. So it gives me a lot of hope. Good. I think, yeah. Onamon? I would say, yeah, I would say so it's great. I love the hospitality that it puts their guests first and I think it's really nice to look at the employees but also the larger communities. So seeing, okay, what kind of impact do you make in your community? How can you also create that community feeling? Look at your staff. So I think the emphasis should not move away, of course, from the guest but should be equally divided. So it's not only for profit. It's not only looking at because I think, and I hope, so it's more maybe I think and I hope it doesn't sound definite but that the hospitality industry will really embrace the people in general. So looking at, okay, how can we do something that's good, not only for profit and that guests will also see that and will say, okay, I wanna stay at this company. So in the end, it will become profitable as well. That doing good will become profitable. I believe that too, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, just to add onto that because it fits quite well to what Onamon said that I think something I learned from one of the first general managers that I was working for and I would love to continue seeing that everywhere is to not lose the personal connection to your entire team and who is working for you and with you and even though we all know in the industry that it can get super stressful and that there is always something going on and it never really stops. It's a running operation that you can and have to take those five minutes to check in with whoever's working in your team. If even you go into the kitchen and take that time to really understand who your team is and also make them feel seen and appreciated because only then you'll really also notice if something is off or you need to jump in to help. So I think on whatever level within the industry to not lose that personal connection because it's always a team that's working in the industry and it only works if you know how everybody's feeling or if you have that personal connection. Yeah, I also agree. And I think as well what I think is really important is equality and even though nowadays that's going way better from experience I've also seen that not everyone is treated the same and that sometimes an intern is higher ranked than an engineer. That's what your experience was in Dubai. I remember that story and that stuck with me. Maybe you can share, we have time. Can you share that little story because that is something. Yeah, I think as well, for example, we got provided housing and I got a room with one other girl and luckily it was a girl from hotel school who was also a friend of Emma and me but the rest, for example, you have categories. So ranks, you know, so number one is GM and then I am number nine or 10 or something as an intern. But then you had engineers that were lower ranked and that meant as well for the housing that they would share another type of room with the beds like this to each other and I had like a separate room and they had to share one bathroom with the whole hallway and I had my own little bathroom with my friend and I think that kind of differences is quite, yeah, it's hurtful to see that that's still there. And for example, as interns we work five days a week and they work six days a week. And with the interviews I've conducted I've also seen the Swift is there like they're trying to Swift from a six day working week to a five day working week but it's not as easy as it sounds and their purpose of visit or not visit but of work is so different than us because most European employees that work there are there too for three, maybe five, maybe 10 years as an exception to build a career, to grow to a management position and they are there just to work, work, work, work they in they out, they don't want to go out for dinner they only want to give their money to their families back home. And I think the fact that the difference over there is so big that's, yeah, of course, yeah, they don't have the feeling to grow and they don't need an higher salary to have do nicer stuff. They really have it for their families but as long as they don't grow they don't get that higher salary. But yeah, it's a difficult topic I would say but I think it's important that as your global topic, so it's not only in Dubai we don't see it as much in maybe the Western world but if you look at other places that you really see kind of caste system as well, right? So all the different ranks and also lots of inequalities based on where you come from based maybe also on the color of your skin. Oh yeah, yeah. Man or woman? I mean, still there, yeah, still there. So that's why it's good. Yeah. That's why it's good we have these conversations I think and I think with this first episode that we have done today we just opened the positive Pandora's box so to speak about well-being in hospitality but in general I think there is so much to talk about. So this is the first episode but I feel that there is so much more to talk about and to share and we need to keep the conversation going with the initial leaders and with the students and of course with the lecturers. So thank you all for being on this special edition this first episode, there's a whole series coming and I encourage you to also invite your fellow students and we're gonna make a beautiful episode for LinkedIn for YouTube from this, so thank you all.